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What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
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Author:  JT191 [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
The Bellett History topic specifies "Jap Nostalgia Only", and I'm not sure if this is the right section, but don't see another with a closer description.

Question: What are the differences in equipment and appearance between the Bellett GT and the Bellett GTR?

There have been a lot of discussions about serial numbers (which don't lend any hint), exterior appearance (which can be changed), debate over some specific cars, and a big hint of some companies converting cars en mas for resale and inflating the number of GTRs beyond what were originally made.
I've said that converting a car by the owner for the owner's enjoyment is really not an issue to me, you own the car, do what you want. But 20,000 in any currency for a GT that may or may not be a GTR is a problem.

How do you tell the difference and is there a feature or some part up underneath everything else that is different, impossible to get or completely impractical to change, that can be used as a litmus test to see of a car is genuine?

The exterior paint scheme is not really a great indicator. There never had been a solid statement if all GTRs came with the black hood and side stripes, or if some were sold in solid colors. Some of the historical books show solid body color GTRs, adding to the question.
But the black hood paint scheme seems to be paired only with orange, white, and blue for the rest of the body, and these are a plain color, not a metallic or pearl.
And the black hood paint scheme has been done incorrectly so many times that it makes spotting a less detailed (less critical term than "bad") conversion reasonably easy, because many miss the black cowl, black stripe across the top of the fenders next to the hood, and the black around the base of the A pillar at the bottom of the windshield.
The other paint details would be the black tailgate panel, black center backs and bottom of the fender mounted mirrors, and the body color trunk hinges. (But the mirrors all got the black back and bottom after 1971). Also, is there a black base on the roof mounted antenna instead of chrome?

The GTRs all appear to have had the short hood, while the GTs continued with the long hood (until the supply of the long hoods was exhausted). The same with the rear quarter panel vents and long turn signals. The GTRs started out with all the revised trim pieces and things like the round front turn signals continued on the GTs until they ran out around or before Christmas of 1969.

But the hood vents seem to be one of the more obvious GTR only exterior feature, along with the split front bumper and fog lights. But these are easily changed.
Replacement original, used, and even reproduction GTR badges seem to be in plentiful supply.

The DOHC 1600 engine is a pretty popular transplant, but not in overly plentiful supply. They either have to come from a wrecked GTR, or an early 117 Coupe, and there weren't a lot of those made.
And there is the possibility that someone started with a GTR and transplanted in a DOHC 1800 or DOHC 2000 engine, just for greed of more power.

After that, it gets a little vague. The interior appearance is not much different, if at all. Do the GTs get wood grain dash and the GTRs get black?
The gauges in the center of the dash look the same, and the center console also.
I've seen some seats, described as GTR, which are low back with the head rest, but the cross stitching on the basket weave inserts is spaced wider than the GT.


But what about some of the mechanicals differences? Something not on top and in plain view. Are there differences in the suspension or structure underneath the car? These things might be overlooked by someone converting a car from a GT to a GTR, and might offer some way to detect the original from the conversion.
Sway bar diameters?
Spring dimensions?
Bushings?
Heavier suspension arms?
Additional frame bracing?

There should be some feature or detail that a person could look under some part of the car, then ask the seller "Why is this detail wrong? Did you have to replace this part with a regular GT part? Please explain why you are selling this car as a GTR and it does not have all the ingredients of a GTR."

It looks like the difference between the value of a GT and a GTR is something like the GTR being worth 5-10 times more. And bumpers, fog lights, hood vents, black paint, and a used DOHC engine look like the quick route to a big profit. It would be nice to have a litmus test to see if that high priced car is real or not.
Author:  dave [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
What you say, JT191 is totally relevant, especially as the value of a GT over that of a GT increases over time.

There are similar problems here with the XR-XT-XW-XY Falcon GT and the GTHO models versus a standard Falcon or Fairmont sedan that has been modified to suit. While the build plates should tell the story in those situations, build plates can and are easily changed from one body to another. There are Falcon GT clubs with great swathes of experts who can tell you that this item had a yellow blob of paint, or this item had extra welds. At the end of the day, if you buy a Falcon GT, or perhaps a Holden Monaro GTS where the numbers check out but it turns out not to be the real deal, well then that's pretty unlucky.

However in the Bellett world things become even more complex. The GT and GTR SEEM to not differ in chassis number codes (still open to debate, but this one depends on who you ask which again... and no 100% proof either way appears to have been found), the details differences are fairly easy for the right person to replicate, especially if they start with a short-bonnet example...

As far as paintwork is concerned (again, easy to replicate), the 1969-models seemed to be the ones in orange, blue or white with the black bonnets. By 1972, it shows in the brochure that Bellett GTRs were offered in darker, metallic colours with no black bonnet. Seems to be a bit of a shame, as the GTR was always supposed to be the lairy boy-racer vehicle, while the subdued gentleman looking for a countryside GT tourer could always opt for the standard GT and it's less extravagant paint schemes. By 1972 at the latest, the boot lid hinges were colour-coded anyway I'm pretty sure.

Perhaps somebody's got some kind of document squirreled away in their collection of books and memorabilia that will help solve this?

Anybody?


Also, I have no idea what section to put this in. Let's leave it here for the time being.
Author:  117Coupe [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
Another difference stated in the Japanese book 'Isuzu Piazza, 117 Coupe, Bellet GT' is that the GTR fuel tank was 46 litres and the GT was 40 litres.
Author:  JT191 [ Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
117Coupe wrote:
Another difference stated in the Japanese book 'Isuzu Piazza, 117 Coupe, Bellet GT' is that the GTR fuel tank was 46 litres and the GT was 40 litres.


That might be a good one. People usually avoid changing the fuel tank unless it is leaking, and the Bellett tank is visible from the top in the trunk. Is there any identifying mark on top? That might be a good litmus test.
Author:  PR91 [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
that fuel tank info isn't correct.
GT-R's had the same tank as all other sedans and GT's.

i think the confusion here is that some numbers of fuel capacity i've seen list that tank alone, being 8.75 gallons or 40 litres, while others list the tank as well as "reserve". this reserve is the filler pipe, fuel line, etc. and this makes them 10.5 gallons, or 46 litres. i've seen this done a couple of times, each way.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=314&start=20

i've listed the original thread here on the GT vs GT-R topic, as bellett65 has posted a copy of the GT-R's FIA homologation papers from early 1970, and this clearly shows that the "W" was on the real GT-R's. hopefully this can now solve the riddle, and that the "W" is the ultimate tell tale of what the car really is.
as a footnote, these GT-R papers also list the fuel tank as 40 litres, and the total capacity with reserve as 10.5 gallons. these are exactly the same figures stated in the FIA papers for ALL the GT's and sedans, right back to the PR90, dated september 1965.
Author:  117Coupe [ Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
Perhaps it was just marketing hype from Isuzu as comparative specifications in the Isuzu catalogues show the GTR as having 46 litres and other models as having 40 litres.
Author:  JT191 [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
JT191 wrote:
July 29, 2009
----
How do you tell the difference and is there a feature or some part up underneath everything else that is different, impossible to get or completely impractical to change, that can be used as a litmus test....
----
But what about some of the mechanicals differences? Something not on top and in plain view. Are there differences in the suspension or structure underneath the car? These things might be overlooked by someone converting a car from a GT to a GTR, and might offer some way to detect the original from the conversion.
Sway bar diameters?
Spring dimensions?
Bushings?
Heavier suspension arms?
Additional frame bracing?
----


JT191 wrote:
Letter from Koji of Bellett Owners Club Tears, August 20, 2009
----
Though I can tell if I look at a small place...
----


I have come across another source comparing equipment (part numbers), and have run through the differences between the GT and GT-R.
The source omits the DOHC engine. It also omits the brake booster. I am sure that there are other very conscious things that are also omitted.
The following are items for which the GT and GT-R of the same year, do not share the same part number. These items may or may not be dimensionally or noticeably different. They may or may not have markings to show that they are different.

Quote:
Radiator
Radiator Assembly (No Detail)
Water Hose; Upper (No Detail)
Water Hose; Lower (No Detail)
Sub Tank Bracket (Coolant Overflow Tank Bracket) (No Detail)

Fuel System
Fuel Tank Assembly (No Detail)
Fuel Pipe Assembly; Tank To Filter (No Detail)
Fuel Tank Unit (No Detail)

Clutch
Pressure Plate Assembly (No Detail)
Pressure Plate (No Detail)
Clutch Spring Set (No Detail)
Clutch Assembly Bolts (No Detail)
Driven Plate Assembly (No Detail)

Transmission
Transmission Assembly (See List Below)
Gear Shift Knob (No Detail)
Under Cover (No Detail)
Gear Assembly; Low w/ Bush (No Detail)
Cluster Gear (No Detail)

Road Wheel
Tire (No Detail)
Wheel (No Detail)

Steering
Steering Wheel (No Detail)
Steering Column Assembly (Probably Steering Wheel)

Brake And Clutch Control
Brake Pedal Fulcrum Assembly (Mounting Bracket) (No Detail)
Brake Master Cylinder (Split) (No Detail)

Suspension
Front Spring Rate
-- Bellett GT 3.5 kg/mm
-- Bellett GT-R 5.3 kg/mm
Front Shock Absorber (No Detail)
Front Brake Caliper (No Detail)
Front Brake Pad (No Detail)
Rear Spring (Same Rate [4.92 kg/mm], Different PN)
Diagonal Link Assembly (No Detail)
Rear Shock Absorber (No Detail)
Leaf Spring Assembly (No Detail)
Leaf Spring Distance Piece(s) (Center Leaf Spring Clamp) (No Detail)
Rear Brake Assemblies (See List Below)
Rear Brake Cylinders (Different Pistons, Seals, Cup, etc.)
Rear Brake Shoes (No Detail)
Wheel Nuts (No Detail)

Rear Axle
Axle Assemblies (See List Below)
Inner Axle Shaft Assembly (No Detail)
Flange Yoke (No Detail)
Flange Yoke Nuts and Bolts (No Detail)
Universal Joint Assemblies (No Detail)

Differential Assembly
Forward Differential Mounting Bracket (No Detail)
Final Drive Assembly (Same Ratio, Different PN)
Oil Seal (No Detail)
Side Shims (Same Thicknesses, Different PN)
Ring Gear Bolts (No Detail)
Differential
-- Bellett GT Open Diff
-- Bellett GT-R LSD, Friction Plate Style

Interior
Glove Box Door (No Detail)
Driver and Passenger Seats
-- Bellett GT Low Back, Movable Headrest
-- Bellett GT-R Tall Back, Built In Headrest
Rear Seat Back (Probably Upholstery Difference)
Rear Seat Cushion (Probably Upholstery Difference)
Interior Colors
-- Bellett GT Black, Blue, Red, Brown
-- Bellett GT-R Black

Exterior Trim / Markings
“DOHC” Badge
“Type-R” Badge

Electrical
Wiring Harness; Engine (No Detail)
Wiring Harness; Body (No Detail)
Wiring Harness; Engine To Body (No Detail)


Some of the things that should show more obvious physical differences would be the radiator, rear inner universal joints (yokes) of the axles, and rear leaf spring.
The clutch pedal bracket, rear trailing arms (diagonal links), and transmission under cover might be "small things that someone could look up under and see the differences".
Author:  Glenn [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
One item i am aware of in a 'real' GTR is the master cylinder. In a GTR it is tilted over to the right to clear the original cast air box on the DOHC engine. This would often be overlooked where the original air box was not used in a GTR "conversion".

As for the W in the chassis number, from my reading, there appears to be no back up of this, ie picture of the chassis number of a GTR with this W in it.

One would imagine that in the factory, a GT shell would roll down the assembly line with it's sequenced chassis number and then be fitted with the GTR parts, to a customer order. Almost random.

my 2c

glenn
Author:  BULLITT [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
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