PR91W Bellett GTR

[JT191]

Apparently you dont read the answers that have been given on this subject as previously "Toshi"

Toshi is/was President of the biggest GT Bellett club in Japan.
....
With apologies - Toshi was a guest at the ICCA Nationals some years back. I incorrectly stated that he was President of a club. That was incorrect.

Find the quote in this thread, dated prior to August 21, that says who Toshi is. It is not clear what the cause of irritation is, but that statement is false. No explanation of who Toshi is was given.

as well as "Tatso"

Who is "Tatso"? This is the first time that name has appeared on this forum.

were invited as guest judges at the 1993 Isuzu Car club of Australia (ICCA) ,

This still does not reveal who Toshi, or this new second person Tatso, are, what organization they are associated with in Japan, what their experience or expertise is, what office or position they might hold that would indicate a level of knowledge or expertise.

of wich I was personaly a member for many years, Nationals in Canberra . As also previously stated with video footage as well as verbal video footage (acceptable in a court of law) the very nice example of a GT-R was judged a QUOTE" A VERY NICE FAKE " ALSO ADMITTED BY THE OWNER OF SAID VEHICLE.

I do not recall Toshi commenting seriously on the "fake" chassis number.

but stamped PR91-W

What was written says that Toshi did not say the chassis number was printed PR91W, but that P.R.90 said that the chassis number was printed PR91W.
Maybe the whole matter was supposed to be dropped once P.R.90 made that statement, but most of the rest of us are still sorting evidence.

If you have video of Toshi or Tatso, or anyone explaining or showing the chassis number, please post it on Youtube so we can all consider it in this discussion.

Also, finding a vehicle which appears to be a GTR, has a chassis number of PR91-XXXXXXX, and is found to be a converted or dressed up GT, does not prove the chassis number of a GTR has a W in the number. Finding a car with a PR91W-XXXXXXX would prove that there is a W in the number. That seems to be the issue, along with the truly blind faith of those who claim the W exists though they have never seen one.

Mabee JT should read what he & others have previously written...

I've read what P.R.90 wrote. I've read what others wrote. Neither of those two things match what P.R.90 claims was written, or say what P.R.90 claims they say.

[Bret]

This is all way too deep for me but i can tell you that this car
http://isuzucars.kamikaze-drive.com/BELLET002.htm
has the chassis ID: PR91-4209341 and my advice is it's genuine.
Probably doesn't help with the argument but was just enjoying the read so much i kind of hoped it would wind you back up for another round!!
Bret.

[JT191]

This is all way too deep for me but i can tell you that this car
http://isuzucars.kamikaze-drive.com/BELLET002.htm
has the chassis ID: PR91-4209341 and my advice is it's genuine.
Probably doesn't help with the argument but was just enjoying the read so much i kind of hoped it would wind you back up for another round!!
Bret.

The link is to a Norwegian car export company. The page doesn't show the chassis number, so it appears that Bret contacted them.

Just to illustrate how poor our identification method is...

Using the equipment detail method:
The mirror backs and roof antenna base are not black. The dash inlays behind the speedometer and on the glove box are wood grain instead of black. The valve cover is copper color.
But it has the split front bumper, fog lights, hood vents, rear quarter panel vents, and body color trunk hinges.

Using the paint and body color method:
It's not orange, white, or blue, with black hood, tailgate, and racing stripe down the side. And the engine compartment is a nice shade of plumb.

But looking around at the rest of the website, something jumps out. They have another Bellett they are offering, which looks more like a GTR, but they are not identifying it as a GTR, and they are selling it for 25% less than this car:
http://isuzucars.kamikaze-drive.com/BELLET001.htm

This car is orange, and looks like a twin to the New Zealand car. Black hood and tailgate, but missing the black on the fender tops and the base of the windshield, and no racing stripe on the side. Chrome back mirrors and antenna base. Black inlays in the dash instead of wood. Split front bumper with fog lights, hood vents, and rear quarter panel vents. Red valve cover on a DOHC engine. The engine compartment paint matches the body color.

So why is the car that looks more like a GTR presented as a GT with a lower asking price?

Does the Norwegian know the little spot or detail secret that the Japanese aren't sharing? Or is he working with a Japanese agent who knows the detail and forwards the information to him in Norway?

[Bret]

Awesome response JT. My only other question is who really shot JFK?
Cheers,
Bret.

[IZU069]

Mafia. He refused to pay back.

[Jap man]

People are probably gonna hate me for re opening this can of worms but it made great reading! Did any sort of decision surface from all this educated discussion? Did someone front with some vin number photos, or did people agree to disagree? As someone that is looking for a GT and seriously considering a GT type R, I (thanks to this site) am now well aware of what could be replicas demanding genuine prices. To be honest I don't have much of a problem owning an imported vehicle, yeah an Aus delivered GT would be nice but damn a GT-R would be pretty darn nice esp next to my GT Corona. Two Jap sports cars at what I think was a pinnacle of development and exciting releases. I also don't really have a problem owning a GT-R replica, as long as I bought it knowing that's what it is. At the end of the day cars are made to be driven, and for me that's where the enjoyment is, perhaps a replica might not tend to be wrapped in cotten wool and sent to me to tears when a stone chip appears! So any advice for anyone on the hunt in Japan? There seem to a few dealers regularly dealing in these cars, one mentioned earlier in this topic, are there places to avoid dealings with. Anyone been burnt, and does anyone have that magical answer to what seems to be an illusive question. How do you identify a Bellett GT type R?

[dave]

Hahaha BOOM it begins again!

Glad this site made you moist in the Bellett department! Those RT40 Coronas used to frustrate me greatly when I first got into Belletts as I'd see them from the corner of my eye and go, "whoah! Oh it's just a Corona..." but back then the basic shovelnose sedans were EVERYWHERE and now they're rare-as!

So now I like them, especially the earlier version.

Hey now I think there was no agreement, which is like an agree to disagree. I'm not saying I won't believe it until I see it, but I think both the 'W' and the non-'W' schools have equally valid arguments and I myself just can't say with absolute conviction that it goes either way. There was some JAF paperwork that showed a W, I think, yet there were cars that appeared genuine that lacked the W. Sheesh. I'm not going there. Perhaps just build a replica then you'll know it's a replica!

Also, some people got burned on a particular car - there may be some info on that in the "Random Bellett Section" perhaps because I threw some photos up of a car I found online and more than one person had put a deposit on it with nothing coming to fruition - although I might be wrong.

So the question is - how do you identify a Type R? Look for the orange Bellett with several people near it arguing...

Welcome on board!

[dave]

Here's that story of a couple of our forum members buying a car that turned out to be sold....

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=475

[PR91]

I also don't really have a problem owning a GT-R replica, as long as I bought it knowing that's what it is. At the end of the day cars are made to be driven, and for me that's where the enjoyment is, perhaps a replica might not tend to be wrapped in cotten wool and sent to me to tears when a stone chip appears!

one of the best comments made on bellett.net ever!!
in the end, as long as you like it, who really cares what it is.

[PR95]

I wouldn"t be to worried if it was a GT or GTR, at least it would be different to a GT Falcon or similar as it is still a 2 door coupe,and would be very hard to turn a Bellett 1500 in a GTR.or GT
The car is still unique and very desirable and is only worth what you are prepared to pay for it, and seems as though no one can really tell the difference anyway and if you did have the genuine article there will always be some one who would try to prove it wasnt one, in other words WHO CARES? I would like to have either

[Farmer]

AMEN. Find it, buy it, fix it, drive it, love it. And show us. And come to the Aus nats if you can!
Cheers, Matt.

[dave]

This can of worms again...

and this time it's MY fault it's being opened.

This car:

Bellett GT-R up for auction - 17-12-09 - 01.JPG (52.14 KiB) Viewed 43363 times

... is up for auction today, 17/12/09. The sales documentation ALLEGES it is a real GT-R, or probably more correctly, doesn't advise that it is a replica, which I understand all Japanese auction paperwork is obliged to disclose. Perhaps someone with more Japanese can interpret the auction paperwork.

The chassis number is: PR91-4213922

There is no W.

Bellett GT-R up for auction - 17-12-09 - 02.JPG (51 KiB) Viewed 43365 times

Bellett GT-R up for auction - 17-12-09 - 03.JPG (55.52 KiB) Viewed 43365 times

Bellett GT-R up for auction - 17-12-09 - 04.JPG (52.74 KiB) Viewed 43362 times

The paperwork shows that it has experienced crash damage (and, as a sidenote, is ineligible for road-registered import to Australia but can be imported for parts or racing), and that it has had a colour change from white to orange.

These things would greatly affect the provenence of the car... and also, open up the possibility that it's hit something hard when it was a GT and has been reborn as a GT-R....

So this doesn't really clarify shit.

But it's a pretty car! Nnnnnnneeeeeeeeoooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[JT191]

That looks like this Goo Net listed car from the other thread:
http://www.goo-net.com/usedcar/spread/g ... 11001.html

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=681

It's the wheels, lack of a DOHC emblem in the grille, chrome backed mirrors and antenna, and wood grain dash, with the shinier than shiny paint that make it really stick out.

[dave]

I'm pretty sure woodgrain is normally supposed to go ACROSS the car rather than up and down.

[GTtoo]

Genuiine or not, resurected or not, if it looks straight and drives well, at the right price it's still a crazy little number !!
Definitely,Vaaaaarrrrrroooooooooooooooommmmmm !!

Yeah, the wood grain looks wierd but groovy,

B.

[PR91]

I'm pretty sure woodgrain is normally supposed to go ACROSS the car rather than up and down.

yep, the grain is the wrong way for a Bellett, but.......
all GT-R's had grey dash fascias anyway, not woodgrain, so it's even 'more' wrong (and i'm assuming this is what JT191 is elluding too as well).

and the black section that runs along the top of the front guards is wrong too (not wide enough).

i smell another rat...................

[GTtoo]

Well, Dave admits to arking up this debate again. Very naughty. But i don't know how i got into it ! Brett, what you are saying is the lack of attention to detail, that people in this forum with knowlege have identified, makes this orange baby an almost certain copy. (unless this is a one off limited edition, somehow doubt that.)

B

feel free to park one in my shed though.....anyone ?

[JT191]

It's not the original paint. It would be amazing for a car to be that shiny after 40 years, but also there is a good layer of shiny clear coat in the engine compartment, which would not have been original.
It does have the black at the base of the windshield and edge of the fenders. This lends a little to the idea that the car had those areas painted black originally, or that the owner at least explained that to the painter. If it is being converted by someone who does not have good details on what the car is supposed to look like, the hood might be black but the surrounding metal might not.

I missed the vertical wood grain on the dash. But the center console is black instead of wood grain. A lot of cars seem to have that marbly or burlwood pattern instead of the tan parallel grain. Is this a common customizing item in Japan?

The Goo Net listing is 1280000 Yen.
What is the going price for a shiny car that appears in really good condition, but is a GT or a GT with GTR parts?
I thought that GTs in OK shape were going for 200000 Yen?
The asking price on the Kamakazi Drive car claimed to be a GTR is 1998000 Yen, and the car identified as a GT which looks more like a GTR than the other car is 1598000 Yen.
Goo Net has listings for GTs and GTRs ranging from 580000 Yen to 1470000 Yen. All photograph very well and a little far away to get a close look underneath to try to spot rust holes and patches.
My thought is that once the price gets into the top half of the Goo Net range mentioned, it is supposed to be the premium paid for a genuine car that started out as a GTR, not a conversion in really good shape.

[P.R.90]

according to body number listed on this vehicle it suggests that it was manufactured
after October 1971 as the body no's for October 1971 start at PR91-4212552 .
Dash panering looks as if it should be on a cupboard in a caravan.
Console looks like a standard 67-69 GT.
If these people are going to attempt to make a replica or a lookalike they should
at least try to get it right

[gt orphanage]

maybe a clue on this subject ????
goo-net have a few gt's at the moment on the left hand side is a discription how many km's ect.also in these discriptions are body numbers. Here is the clue as there are some gtr looking cars advertised as gtr when you look over to the body number some read pr91w-****** while others read pr91-****** maybe proof who knows?