What are the differences between the GT and GTR?
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:28 pm
The Bellett History topic specifies "Jap Nostalgia Only", and I'm not sure if this is the right section, but don't see another with a closer description.
Question: What are the differences in equipment and appearance between the Bellett GT and the Bellett GTR?
There have been a lot of discussions about serial numbers (which don't lend any hint), exterior appearance (which can be changed), debate over some specific cars, and a big hint of some companies converting cars en mas for resale and inflating the number of GTRs beyond what were originally made.
I've said that converting a car by the owner for the owner's enjoyment is really not an issue to me, you own the car, do what you want. But 20,000 in any currency for a GT that may or may not be a GTR is a problem.
How do you tell the difference and is there a feature or some part up underneath everything else that is different, impossible to get or completely impractical to change, that can be used as a litmus test to see of a car is genuine?
The exterior paint scheme is not really a great indicator. There never had been a solid statement if all GTRs came with the black hood and side stripes, or if some were sold in solid colors. Some of the historical books show solid body color GTRs, adding to the question.
But the black hood paint scheme seems to be paired only with orange, white, and blue for the rest of the body, and these are a plain color, not a metallic or pearl.
And the black hood paint scheme has been done incorrectly so many times that it makes spotting a less detailed (less critical term than "bad") conversion reasonably easy, because many miss the black cowl, black stripe across the top of the fenders next to the hood, and the black around the base of the A pillar at the bottom of the windshield.
The other paint details would be the black tailgate panel, black center backs and bottom of the fender mounted mirrors, and the body color trunk hinges. (But the mirrors all got the black back and bottom after 1971). Also, is there a black base on the roof mounted antenna instead of chrome?
The GTRs all appear to have had the short hood, while the GTs continued with the long hood (until the supply of the long hoods was exhausted). The same with the rear quarter panel vents and long turn signals. The GTRs started out with all the revised trim pieces and things like the round front turn signals continued on the GTs until they ran out around or before Christmas of 1969.
But the hood vents seem to be one of the more obvious GTR only exterior feature, along with the split front bumper and fog lights. But these are easily changed.
Replacement original, used, and even reproduction GTR badges seem to be in plentiful supply.
The DOHC 1600 engine is a pretty popular transplant, but not in overly plentiful supply. They either have to come from a wrecked GTR, or an early 117 Coupe, and there weren't a lot of those made.
And there is the possibility that someone started with a GTR and transplanted in a DOHC 1800 or DOHC 2000 engine, just for greed of more power.
After that, it gets a little vague. The interior appearance is not much different, if at all. Do the GTs get wood grain dash and the GTRs get black?
The gauges in the center of the dash look the same, and the center console also.
I've seen some seats, described as GTR, which are low back with the head rest, but the cross stitching on the basket weave inserts is spaced wider than the GT.
But what about some of the mechanicals differences? Something not on top and in plain view. Are there differences in the suspension or structure underneath the car? These things might be overlooked by someone converting a car from a GT to a GTR, and might offer some way to detect the original from the conversion.
Sway bar diameters?
Spring dimensions?
Bushings?
Heavier suspension arms?
Additional frame bracing?
There should be some feature or detail that a person could look under some part of the car, then ask the seller "Why is this detail wrong? Did you have to replace this part with a regular GT part? Please explain why you are selling this car as a GTR and it does not have all the ingredients of a GTR."
It looks like the difference between the value of a GT and a GTR is something like the GTR being worth 5-10 times more. And bumpers, fog lights, hood vents, black paint, and a used DOHC engine look like the quick route to a big profit. It would be nice to have a litmus test to see if that high priced car is real or not.
Question: What are the differences in equipment and appearance between the Bellett GT and the Bellett GTR?
There have been a lot of discussions about serial numbers (which don't lend any hint), exterior appearance (which can be changed), debate over some specific cars, and a big hint of some companies converting cars en mas for resale and inflating the number of GTRs beyond what were originally made.
I've said that converting a car by the owner for the owner's enjoyment is really not an issue to me, you own the car, do what you want. But 20,000 in any currency for a GT that may or may not be a GTR is a problem.
How do you tell the difference and is there a feature or some part up underneath everything else that is different, impossible to get or completely impractical to change, that can be used as a litmus test to see of a car is genuine?
The exterior paint scheme is not really a great indicator. There never had been a solid statement if all GTRs came with the black hood and side stripes, or if some were sold in solid colors. Some of the historical books show solid body color GTRs, adding to the question.
But the black hood paint scheme seems to be paired only with orange, white, and blue for the rest of the body, and these are a plain color, not a metallic or pearl.
And the black hood paint scheme has been done incorrectly so many times that it makes spotting a less detailed (less critical term than "bad") conversion reasonably easy, because many miss the black cowl, black stripe across the top of the fenders next to the hood, and the black around the base of the A pillar at the bottom of the windshield.
The other paint details would be the black tailgate panel, black center backs and bottom of the fender mounted mirrors, and the body color trunk hinges. (But the mirrors all got the black back and bottom after 1971). Also, is there a black base on the roof mounted antenna instead of chrome?
The GTRs all appear to have had the short hood, while the GTs continued with the long hood (until the supply of the long hoods was exhausted). The same with the rear quarter panel vents and long turn signals. The GTRs started out with all the revised trim pieces and things like the round front turn signals continued on the GTs until they ran out around or before Christmas of 1969.
But the hood vents seem to be one of the more obvious GTR only exterior feature, along with the split front bumper and fog lights. But these are easily changed.
Replacement original, used, and even reproduction GTR badges seem to be in plentiful supply.
The DOHC 1600 engine is a pretty popular transplant, but not in overly plentiful supply. They either have to come from a wrecked GTR, or an early 117 Coupe, and there weren't a lot of those made.
And there is the possibility that someone started with a GTR and transplanted in a DOHC 1800 or DOHC 2000 engine, just for greed of more power.
After that, it gets a little vague. The interior appearance is not much different, if at all. Do the GTs get wood grain dash and the GTRs get black?
The gauges in the center of the dash look the same, and the center console also.
I've seen some seats, described as GTR, which are low back with the head rest, but the cross stitching on the basket weave inserts is spaced wider than the GT.
But what about some of the mechanicals differences? Something not on top and in plain view. Are there differences in the suspension or structure underneath the car? These things might be overlooked by someone converting a car from a GT to a GTR, and might offer some way to detect the original from the conversion.
Sway bar diameters?
Spring dimensions?
Bushings?
Heavier suspension arms?
Additional frame bracing?
There should be some feature or detail that a person could look under some part of the car, then ask the seller "Why is this detail wrong? Did you have to replace this part with a regular GT part? Please explain why you are selling this car as a GTR and it does not have all the ingredients of a GTR."
It looks like the difference between the value of a GT and a GTR is something like the GTR being worth 5-10 times more. And bumpers, fog lights, hood vents, black paint, and a used DOHC engine look like the quick route to a big profit. It would be nice to have a litmus test to see if that high priced car is real or not.