AFAIK all Peter ever said was that Tom's GT-R is not "a fake because it does NOT have a PR91W chassis number".
He and others went through that stuff including homologation papers ages ago (ever seen a GTR head with removable inlet manifolds?).
Peter knows the previous owner and where its original engine is. ( A GTR type G161W from the same region recently changed owners.)
And he's quoted others as referring to it as "the 3rd best example of a GTR in the world".

As to his comments on fake or real, I don't know.
But I do know he was keen to undo the original misinformation that the BCCV was fed in relation to the PR91W chassis number, and newer claims that they all had the long thin tail lights or were only white & orange etc. (This site has far fewer furphies than other local forums.)

Hey Man, well said.
But don't knock the BCCV. And it was only one more piece of misinfo (illogical person!).

It has been a tough decision but I have it for sale. Here is a link to the auction site. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 428358.htm
I can help with shipping to Oz if anyone is keen.

A beautiful machine, just tottally phatt !! I can see how the decision has been ultra tough, PR91W. I'm sure it will be most loved by it's next owner (maybe in Oz). Would compliment my standard PR91 in the shed, but can only dream at this point.

B.

I am about to reopen this can of worms. I have in front of me the FIA paperwork for the Isuzu Motors Limited car. Model Isuzu PR91W (BellettGTR) The papers are quite clear the vehicle presented was chassis number PR91W-4209488. It has a full description of the vehicle with all the measurements. I do also have the papers for the GT. But left them in the workshop. I only remembered that I had these papers when I got a phone call today about them.

I have attached a copy that I hope will resolve this issue in the affirmative for the "W" on the chassis number.

Peter

good find there bellett65. i've got a copy of that paperwork here also (as well as most of the other PR90, 91 etc. papers too), and these comfirm what you have posted.

for those that don't know what this paperwork is bellett65 has posted, i'll briefly explain...
when a manufacturer desides to race there car/s in any form of motorsport (when the car/s are new), they must go through a process, called "homologation", with the international motorsport governing body, being the FIA, to set the guidelines for that particular kind and spec of car. this is so that each car that is then raced is able to be checked to make sure it is actually what it's supposed to be, and mainly to make sure that cheats are caught with illegally modified cars.
this process is done by the manufacturer presenting a complete car of the exact type to be race to the FIA, or in this case, the JAF (who are the japanese version of the FIA, and represent them in japan. this is exactly the same as CAMS does here in australia with aus built cars), and that particular car is measured, checked, weighed and recorded, to the point where the car is stripped to it's individual parts to have EVERYTHING documented.
part of all of this is that the FIA/JAF/CAMS record on the initial documents the indenty of the actual car they checked, and in the Bellett GT-R's case, it was chassis number PR91W-4209488, engine number G161-100320.
this proves that the GT-R's did have the W in their chassis numbers, and for a few reasons from the FIA papers alone.
first off, the papers are dated January 1970, meaning the car in question was a brand new GT-R, not a car that could have been cobbled together 10 years later, and secondly, Isuzu would NEVER have presented a "normal" GT body with the GT-R bits in it to the FIA, as every GT-R that then raced would have had a different chassis prefix, meaning those cars should have been a normal GT, making every raced GT-R a cheater.

an interesting point that also comes to light here is that Isuzu added the W to the chassis number on random cars as were ordered and built. this is proven by another FIA document i have here for a "normal" GT from the same year, and the presented car's chassis number is only 44 before the presented GT-R.

hopefully this puts the debate in a better light now.
cheers.

The W in the chassis number/vehicle identification number, was apparently contentiously debated some time ago.


The JAF paperwork adds a lot of information to the debate. But there are still some problems.

The JAF is not infallible and they make a lot of paperwork errors on the chassis numbers for official event results.
A lot of the races that the Belletts participated in show results simply as "Bellett", without noting sedan or coupe, chassis number, GT or GTR, etc.
There are event results showing only the manufacturer name "Isuzu" without indicating the model.
There are event results with the model name misspelled.
For Gemini in 1985 and 1986, they do not indicate model, engine, or even layout. There is no way to determine if the result is for the continued use of a PF after production ended, or the use of a new JT.
The same problem returns for 1989 through 1991. JT150 and 190 models continue alongside 151 and 191, and there is often nothing other than the model name "Gemini".
And, within the JT191 models, for 1991 and 1992, there is only a single race result that shows which cars were FWD and which cars were AWD, among over a dozen results.
JAF makes no notation of the Type C Geminis at all, which were a similar production run to meet homologation requirements two decades after the Bellett GTR.
If they are that sloppy with the official event results, how can we be certain of the homologation paperwork? Is there some shorthand that they added in their notation? And this was not a document that the vehicle owner presented in order to participate in an event, this was a process the vehicle manufacturer went through to prove they built enough of the same specification cars to qualify for inclusion of their cars in a certain class with a certain engine.


If this were paperwork from the vehicle manufacturer, the discussion would be pretty much over. But the JAF did not build the car, and the paperwork was not filled out by the vehicle manufacturer, it has a JAF agent's signature on the bottom.
The English speaking people who have GTRs have either commented that there is no W in the chassis number printed on the vehicle firewall, or they have been silent. Either they have a car of questionable origin or the W isn't printed on the vehicle.
We don't have a picture of a number printed on the firewall with the W in it. Had I known this was an issue, I would have looked and taken a picture when I was standing next to some of these cars. Strangely, if this was the easy identification method, we could expect sellers in Japan to be including a photo of the chassis number on the firewall to prove that they are selling a GTR and not a GT conversion.
Using the Type C cars as another parallel, these cars were not indicated as Type C in the chassis number, but in the three digit option code on the sticker on the firewall, next to the chassis number printed into the sheet metal. Someone even published a partial chronological chassis number list, which indicates which cars were Type C and which cars were not. A similar list for Belletts is supposed to exist, somewhere.


It seems like the people who know the details are also the people who benefit the most from the rest of us not being able to sort genuine from not genuine. I expect Eagle could walk up to a car and tell you if it were genuine or not with almost no effort, but then turn around and resell it without commenting or pointing out the details that prove it is what they claim. And the heads of the Japanese clubs also, right down to some cryptic quotes about cars when they visited Australia.


I'm left still in the middle, wondering. I'm not saying the W printed in the number is wrong, just pointing out the questions that remain.

Is any of the JAF paperwork matched to an existing vehicle? Is this random paperwork gathered as memorabilia, or does someone have the paperwork that matches the car that they own?

I did not recognize this when I saw it the first time.
I started out going down the used car listings for Goo Net and Yahoo JP, trying to find a picture of a VIN number. There are something like eight GTRs listed right now, and little surprise that all but one are from Eagle. Also, little surprise that none have a picture of the VIN number.
I went back and reminded myself of the location on the firewall, on the left end facing up just forward of the cowl on the cars that have the cowl. And none of hte engine compartment photos could be zoomed in on to show the number.

Then I went back to the New Zealand car that seems to have an inaccurate paint job and incorrect chrome details. The blurry picture is a picture of the VIN number. The black stripe shows the original paint, they taped over the VIN number when they painted the car orange. The car may have previously had a black cowl which they painted over in orange. The bright aluminum plaque is apparently some kind of identification added for vehicle registration.

The chassis number is:
PR91-4211866 (not positive of the last number)

This doesn't prove anything for the debate.
Either the W isn't printed on the car and this is a poorly detailed restoration of a GTR, or the W is on the GTRs and this is not a GTR.

Afterthought: Realizing that there is black paint under the orange on the firewall, either the previous paint had the black hood and cowl paint correct for the GTR, or the original color was solid black. I don't recall black as being an original color for these cars. That puts a bit of a twist on the confusion, doesn't it.

Nice work bellett65 have copy of same paperwork as well as pr90 & pr91 WITHOUT the "W"
Mabee the manufacturer,s got it wrong & missnamed the G.T.-R P.R.91 W and were meaning to call it a Datsun SSS or a Toyota Sprinter or something .

Mabee JT191 got it wrong again The J.A.F. papers are not issued without correct checks & varification of type , engine number ,body/chassis number manufacturer specs.
Many hours have been spent researching & discussing this topic & after viewing JAF papers & factory sales brochres & fartory parts listings I as have many people that have researched this subject came to the same conclusion that
1: The manufacturer of the vehicle got it wrong and don't know what cars they are producing
2 The controlling body J.A.F. got it wrong and issued papers to the wrong company for the
wrong vehicle
3 Nobody really knows what a P.R.91 W GT -R really is or looks like most of all THE PEOPLE THAT BUILT THE VEHICLE
4 JT191 should face facts in black & white that a Bellett GT-R has a PR91W prefixing the body/chassis number.

Usually the people that design & manufacturer the vehicle know what they have built & tested , some of us are just proud to own the Marque others of us should take notice of people that make the vehicle just in case they might know what they are doing after all do you think all this info. could be wrong & 1 person is correct .
SOMETHING TO PONDER

I will try to explain how the FIA system works. The FIA has affiliates around the world. In Australia it is CAMS. A vehicle presented for homologation arrives at the inspection site, the manufacturer has "ALL" the relevant paperwork filled in. The vehicle is given the once over. "ALL" relevant numbers are checked, by the examiners. These examiners are called scrutineers. Once it is found to match the submitted paperwork the relevant certificate of homologation is issued. Hence the Isuzu Bellett GTR is described in FIA Recognition Number 1604. A 14 page document that describes the vehicle as presented. The rules also require a particular number of these vehicles to be built (minimum) to be homologated.

In general motor sport a log book may be issued, usually for straight race vehicles, to help create a history. These log books have the chassis number recorded. The vehicle descriptions may just be for example Isuzu Bellett sedan. They may have the model designation but it is not a general requirement.

I am a scrutineer and I am licensed cover everything from club events to F1. When doing pre-race checks so a log book can be issued the most important part of the documentation is getting the chassis/VIN number correct.

This is to assist avoiding cheating. As an example at the last V8 meet a Mini crashed and was being taken of site for repairs. The Chief scrutineer required that the vehicle be presented before leaving the track, to check the chassis/VIN number. So I have grave doubts as to Isuzu supplying incorrect data to JAF. Further to that the English language is the one used as the normal language on the homologation paperwork is based. Just like the aviation industry.

Peter

If the JAF paperwork is the cornerstone of the claim that GTR chassis numbers are "PR91W-#######", then that claim is very weak indeed.

I have already provided examples of errors in JAF paperwork in event reporting.

I have pointed out the observation that the JAF fills out the paperwork, not the car manufacturer, as is indicated by the JAF official's signature on the bottom of the paperwork you provided, not an Isuzu employee. Any and all statements or claims that Isuzu was responsible for what a JAF official wrote down are simply inaccurate.

And if the claim is that "race officials do not make mistakes", then either you haven't been racing, or you don;t have enough experience to witness the fact that race officials are just as human as the rest of us and they make just as many mistakes as the rest of us too.

And of all the strange and unexplainable things in the information and history of these cars, the one thing that can't possibly be is for a third party racing governing body to add a descriptive digit to their internal paperwork that doesn't match the original chassis number of the vehicle as manufactured by the car manufacturer? That's putting a blind eye to all the other strange things about these cars.


I'll ask for the clinching proof again:

1. Do you have any of this JAF paperwork matched to _any_ Bellett GTR upon which the chassis number printed on the vehicle firewall can be matched to the paperwork from the JAF?

2. Do you have any picture of the chassis number printed in any GTR that has a W in the chassis number?

There are supposed to be more than one GTR in Australia. This would not be an insurmountable feat without even leaving the country. Do any of these cars show up at shows? Are they left on display with the hood up?
If they are in public with the hood up, you can take a picture. If they never show up to shows, the owner refuses to open the hood, or the owner refuses to allow a photograph of the chassis number, then there are several questions of "Why?". Either your assertion is wrong, and they have a genuine GTR which genuinely does not have a W in the chassis number, because your assertion is wrong, and they want to avoid false accusations. Or, they know they have a fake car.


You have an interesting theory, a very persuasive theory. But it is still just a theory. The proof is finding visual evidence that there is any car anywhere with a W in the chassis number stamped into the firewall. You don;t have that proof, so you still have a theory.
But, you've taken that theory and put it into practice as if you have proof. Basically, you saying: "If you have a you believe is a GTR and it doesn't have a W printed into the chassis number, your car is a fake!". You're also telling "PR91W", the gentleman in New Zealand, member of this message board, who is selling his car right now that "he has a fake, he now knows he has a fake, and he is a crook for presenting that car for sale as the genuine article and at a price of $19,000-25,000".

Up until examining the chassis number picture of that New Zealand car, I was leaning toward the opinion that it was not a GTR, and that an unfortunate fellow Bellett owner had spent a lot more money than he should have, believing that he was buying a GTR.
But there is black paint under the orange paint on the firewall of that vehicle. Black is not a primer color that anyone would use under a light color like orange. Black was not a color offered as original on these cars.
This leaves me leaning toward the opinion that the New Zealand car is a genuine GTR, and the claim of a W in the chassis number of GTRs is not accurate.

If someone comes up with a picture of a chassis number stamp with a W, I'll change my opinion and the debate will be over. But, without some visual evidence, it's still just an unproven theory.

Were the above documents from the JAF a log book, or were they homologation paperwork?

This is a comparison of apples and oranges, because these are not the same pieces of paperwork. One is a log book that was created as an identification for a specific vehicle to be presented by the owner/driver whenever that vehicle goes to the track. The other is a document created by the racing organization when the manufacturer applied for inclusion in a racing class requiring a certain production number for qualification, and this document was never intended as identification beyond proof that said manufacturer did in fact make the claimed number of vehicles.

Wow this is a meaty little argument. I remind all participants to play nice.

In terms of the JAF, FIA and CAMS, scruitineering paperwork is probably a bit more exact and reliable than race results; most race results are published based on what the entrant put on their paperwork. They could write "Isuzu coupe", "Bellett", "Bellett GTR", "Gulf Bellett" or whatever closely described the car at the time and that would get the point across. This information is then usually seen in the results.

As an example of what I'm trying to say, I've seen race results included a "Commodore", a "VP Commodore" and a "Commodore SS" and all three entrants were driving the same type of car! They were all VP Commodore SS's, and they would have all be homologated off the homologation paperwork for VP Commodore SS's, but because people generally aren't that careful, pedantic or anal about accuracy, their entries varied.

So homologation information and race results aren't directly comparable in that regard. However when homologating the car, it's not entrants filling in the paperwork, it's scruitineers that are supposed to get the job right. They went into some great detail, and to write up a chassis number with a random and latent W just in the right spot is pretty unlikely.

HOWEVER.

Before half of MISSOURI or wherever JT lurks when he's not wielding his mighty Thor-hammer-keyboard, explodes in a shower of range and tears, let me explain that from where I sit, the paperwork looks pretty convincing. But I, like JT, want to see a car with that on it for certain!

Now perhaps until a car with a completely undeniable history and incontrovertible authenticity shows up, we should just put away the guns and chill for a section and learn to love one another again.

Word brothers.

Agreed, homologation paperwork and race results are not the same. But, homologation paperwork and a log book are not the same either.
This may be shocking, but everyone who works for a racing organization is not a car enthusiast or an expert on every possible car. I have had race officials misidentify the Isuzu car I was driving as a Saturn, a Chevrolet Cavalier, a Nissan, a Mazda, and a "whatever the heck that thing is". The race officials who work races are usually car enthusiasts, but not necessarily interested or even remotely familiar with every car, or whatever you happen to be driving.
But, the number crunchers and paper pushers at the office, who would be doing mind numbing jobs like counting cars to see if a manufacturer makes the minimum for their customers to enter in a certain racing class, these are people who may or may not care or know anything about cars. Their attitude may be "Yeah, I have a job, I do paperwork for some company that races cars".
This is a far reach from a log book.



I'll settle for just a picture of a firewall with a W in the chassis number. Your level is above mine. But proof beyond speculation is needed when hammering people over something that has not been proven.

The following pages of the _complete_ document have text that is scratched out, crossed out, or typed over:
Page 4: Rear Suspension indicated as Diagonal Link, amended to Swing Axle.
Page 9: Differential indicated as Mechanical, amended to Friction.

To say that there are not mistakes in the document itself would be inaccurate. And these are just the mistakes that they made in filling out the paperwork, later found, and corrected. If I were knowledgeable about the details, I might challenge some of the specs not corrected, like Page 4: Aluminum pistons...

In addition, no one seems to have noticed that the vehicle as presented for inspection has not yet been equipped with the fog lights.

Mabee if JT191had a specific PARTS LISTING produced by ISUZU MOTORS LTD.in October 1970 listing PR91 W as a Bellett GT-R
But there again AS STATED PREVIOUSLY mabee Isuzu Motors dont know what they're talking about and they produced some other vehicle and put it forward for JAF to look at & then produced parts listings " non specific body numbers to suit non specific cars of course " just to waste time energy & to say the least paper .
Or mabee they do know what they're talking about & just did'nt tell anyone about this so as to create confusion amongst the ill informed

I DON'T THINK SO TIM

I posed the question to the Bellett Owners Club Tears.

Original message:

すみません。 変な外人は質問があります。

英語のベレットのコミュニティに大きい議論があります。 議論はベレットGTRの確認の為にです。 車のfire wallに車のシャシの番号は質問です。
[車のfire wallにGTRのシャシの番号はPR91W-#######です]と一つグループは言っていました。
[車のfire wallに全てのベレットGTとGTRのシャシの番号がPR91-#######です]と他のグループは言っていました。 [車のfire wallにベレットGTRにWがありません]と他のグループは言っていました。

日本人のベレットのオーナーズは助けて下さい。

Translation:
I am sorry. A crazy foreigner has a question.

There is a great controversy in the English speaking Bellett community. The controversy concerns the identification of the GTR. The question is the chassis number on the vehicle fire wall.
One group says that the GTR chassis number on the fire wall is PR91W-#######.
Another group says that the GT and GTR chassis number printed on the firewall are all PR91-#######. The second group says there is no W in the chssis number on the firewall of the GTR.

Japanese Bellett owners, please help.


The answer from Koji:

こんばんは。

お答えします。
fire wall（バルクヘッド）のシャシ番号はPR91-#######が正解です。
車の書類にも、一切「W」の文字はありません。
ボディはGTもGT-Rも共通ですからね。

私のGT-Rも、もちろんPR91-#######ですよ。
このため、GT-R用のパーツを取り付けたGTとの外観での違いはなかなか判りません。エンジンをG161W(DOHC)に換えてあれば、ますます判りづらいです。
あとは細かい所を見ていけば判りますけど・・・

Translation:
Good Evening.

I answer you.
The correct answer is that the number on the firewall (bulkhead) is PR91-#######.
In the documents of the car, there is not a W either.
This is common to both GT and GT-R.

The chassis number of my GT-R is also, of course, PR91-#######.
Because of this, it is difficult to know the difference by the appearance of a GT which has GT-R parts installed. If it has the G161W (DOHC) engine, it is harder and harder to tell.
Though I can tell if I look at a small place...


This would seem to be confirmation that there is not a W in the chassis number printed on the GTR, or the paperwork that accompanies the GTR.

It also confirms that there is a way of telling the difference between the two that those in the know are not willing to share with the rest of us.

Obviosly Isuzu Motors don't know as much as jt191 & his japanese coleagues as acording to a verbal conversation with Managing Director of Isuzu motor Spare parts a P.R. 91 "W" refers,according to Tokyo Motors, to a Isuzu Bellett G.T.-R.
How stupid of them not to check with JT before manufacturing a vehicle,as it is plain tos see that JT has more knowledge than the company that makes these vehicles.How sad for Isuzu that they should have to refer to outsiders as to what model number's they have to put on there cars .
Mabee some knowledgeable person could help with a FULL list of MODEL I.D. numbers and send it to ISUZU as they probably would like to know what model numbers that they have manufactured.
Could you help with this list JTas you seem to have more knowledge than the makers of the vehicles?
Could your japanese friends help with this list JT ?

It would be so much easier as they are already in Japan Iam sure that the manufactures would appreciate any help they can get so as to assist us Dumb Bums that now less than you .

Probably 20+ years of arguing about this on the Australian continent, and no one ever thought to ask someone in one of the Japanese clubs nicely? It took less than a day to get an answer. I'm as surprised as anyone that I got an answer, but there it is.

I realize there is more than one car club in Australia, but at least one of these claims to have close ties with the Japanese car clubs.
http://www.izucca.com.au/history/35-clu ... ia-history


Who's Koji? Apparently he's involved in organizing the Bellett Owners Club of Japan event at Fuji at the end of October. And a regular on their BBS page. I didn't ask for a blood test. I have no reason to doubt this man's word or motive any more than anyone else involved.

I asked before who "Toshi" was, mentioned earlier in this thread, and got no specific answer.

Is nothing short of a signed affidavit from Ohba or Mochizuki the only acceptable evidence?

There seems to be significantly less interest in uncovering information and significantly more interest in defending a theory. Is the primary motive to find as many pieces of information as possible and sort through them to find what seems to be the most accurate, or to exclude everything that disagrees with what any one person has decided without considering anything else, and force everyone else to agree in the face of evidence to the contrary?
Are lawyers called barristers in Australia, because this looks a lot like a lawyer tactic to present only what supports his client and then spend all his effort objecting and protesting the entry of any evidence against his client.

Apparently you dont read the answers that have been given on this subject as previously "Toshi" as well as "Tatso" were invited as guest judges at the 1993 Isuzu Car club of Australia (ICCA) ,of wich I was personaly a member for many years, Nationals in Canberra . As also previously stated with video footage as well as verbal video footage (acceptable in a court of law) the very nice example of a GT-R was judged a QUOTE" A VERY NICE FAKE " ALSO ADMITTED BY THE OWNER OF SAID VEHICLE.
Mabee JT should read what he & others have previously written so as not to confuse himself with unessary B.....T that does nobody any good least of all his/hers own credibility & if you ask a question inquiring about information then why critisize, when you allegedly have better information than the information than that which is being given .
You are obviosuly a very knowlegable person when it comes to the Isuzu Bellett range of vehicles knowing more than the people that manufacture the vehicles .
Lawers are not called barristers in Australia . Lawers are called lawers. Barristers are called Barristers or Sir .Must be different in your country which explaines the confusion on your part about P.R.91 "W" AS AGAINST P.R. 91 one has a "W" the other one doesn't Which part ot this dont you understand . DRRRRRRRRR the "W".
.