GT Legends (PC Game) and making PR90 in it.

[Nappe1]

Yes, you read right.

I am part of the team working to bring this first japanese GT to the game to tease heck out of Lotus Cortina Mk 1 and Alfa Romeo GTA.

So, why PR90 and not PR91 or even GTR? well, the game has TC-65 as lowest class, so cars are homologated before end of year 1965. PR90 is only one fitting to this description so we decided to start with that. Later on PR91 and PR91W might be in work list as well.

We have the model in game already and it is looking good, but now we are about to make physics for it and so, we'll need some data to make it as real as possible. It would be nice to have real torque and power curves of FIA Homologated PR90 historic racer, but I doubt finding one, so I am asking to approximate the amount of torque, power and in which rpm from that OHV engine in pure racing setup. based on those values I can use certain tools to build quite realistic curves.

Also, available gear ratios (tooth counts would be nice) and final drives available with Limited Slip Differential setup, as well as car mass in racing trim. fuel tank size and some approximation about fuel consumption could be helpful as well. oh... weight distribution and ride height, makes a big difference as well.

and yes, I am another crazy Finn loving GT Belletts. (In my home town Kotka there's one street trim 1969 GT-R perfectly restored with Type-R and DOCH plates... and you just can't be falling to love of that sound. It's awesome.) I also adore few other makes models, like Toyota's 1965 Sport 800 and fast classic Coopers have always had place in my heart.

Hopefully not asking too much, as we want to do this car properly.
yours,
Lasse 'Nappe1' Kärkkäinen
Kotka, Finland

[AriNojd]

Small world !

I got that GT in Kotka.
It´s not pure Type-R but has DOHC ( 2 litre ).

Here´s some facts from 1965 GT Parts List for your project.





Terveisin,
Ari

[Nappe1]

As this project now (at last) continues, I would be very happy if someone here could send me GT-R Homologation papers... Antti Pellonpää from finnish Bellett owners club already sent the PR90 papers (frtom 1964 to 1966) but he is out of office (according to his email auto reply) so I am missing the PR91 and PR91w papers...

Car is progressing well, but those papers would help a lot.
can anyone help, please?

EDIT: also if someone has dynographs from G160 and/or G161W engines, it would be great.

[dave]

I'm sure someone has these papers.....

Someone... somewhere.... would have to have them.

[isu1600]

papers found here... http://www.isuzuownersclub.com/fi/index ... abefd21af5

[Nappe1]

papers found here... http://www.isuzuownersclub.com/fi/index ... abefd21af5

excelent stuff, thanks...
(Why I did not looked that myself? national make club should be the first places to check... oh well, getting old or something. )

ah... I knew it, there's new closer ratio gearbox, compared to PR90 homologation, for the PR91 and PR91W... back to modeling engine and gearbox behaviour.

[virtualbellett]

Hey nappe,

Didnt know you had registered here.

Grav

NGMT

[Nappe1]

Hey nappe,

Didnt know you had registered here.

Grav

NGMT

Yep, I am
Great to work with you to bring this classic to the game.
Should we share here what our small team has complished so far?

I am planning to release the demo video in youtube in saturday / sunday as well... should be quite cool, took syncronized 720p25 capture with 4 different camera angles in three tracks. Still have not decided should I include music, I have permission for one track, but we'll see if it fits.

[Pombellett]

What I know about video games can be written on a pin head, and I've never played one. But when my Scandanavian mates produced this I was stunned,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5vJnuhgRQw

Having instructed at Goodwood for longer than I care to mention, I do know every square inch of tarmac there and I can tell this footage is seriously accurate, even down to the patches in the surface........how do they do that?????

It would also be nice if Rolie goes this well (except for the lurid tank slapper and spin)

[Nappe1]

Well, the car in that video is what "virtualbellett" (aka. Gravin), dbStreet and I have been working last two years. Biggest thanks for this efforts has to be Gravin, who has made an tremdeous job making really close to real life suspension physics. We are targetting 1970-1973 spec racing Bellett GTRs with the car in the video and while it is already quite good, the engine physics are probably still wayy off.

The track is (of course) quality of digital british engineering (can't remember the authors names right now but can look it up.), originally made for GP Legends (1967 F1 simulator) and later on updated for this newer game GT Legends which simulates the FIA TC65, GTC-65 and GTC-TC-76 series (seasons 2004 / 2005 to be exact)

pombellett: we would love to do Rolie as well. It would be perfect (with OHV engine) to race against others ( Austin Cooper 1275 S, Cortina Mk I, Alfa GTA, Mustang , Falcon... ) in TC-65 class but as this project has been going on over 2 years already, so we need to get something finished before getting more targets.

I will post tonight the video which was shown in Classic Motorshow (Lahti, Finland) in Isuzu Owners Club Finland stand.

Lasse 'Nappe1' Kärkkäinen
Isuzu Owners Club Finland,
mechanicals and basic physics of Isuzu Bellett GTR for GT LEGENDS.

[Stickman]

I had a look at the Utube link that Pombellett put on and the work you guys (Nappe1, virtualbellett & dbstreet) have done is fantastic!
Now that is a game I WANT TO PLAY, especially if there should ever be a virtual 'Rolie' to choose from (the only choice for me) in the line up of cars. That would be the sort of thing that dreams are made of.
After seeing Rolie for the first time encrusted with lychens and moss on the back of the tilt tray at Coona and thinking he was one of the most beautifull cars I'd ever seen, to then see him leave Australian shores and head off for his new life in the UK where he recieved the kind of love and attention that Micihael Angelo gave the Sistine Chaple and infact become one of the most beautiful restored cars I've ever seen, it excites me to read of the possibility that he could even be immortalized in GT Legends game form.

What's next Rolie pogs?!
or Rolie breakfast ceral?! (Rolie oats maybe )

You guys are outstanding!

Two thumbs up from me.

Stickman

[Pombellett]

Cheers, Sticky.

I'm just wondering now whether they can make me 'virtually' quick, like I was in the old days................oh, and about this belly.............

[Nappe1]

Thanks guys,
The Game, GT LEGENDS, itself is already 6 years old, but amount of user made addons you can download for it is astonishing. Yet, the game is still available as digital download and costs less than 10 Euros.

I think you can help us with this. I have been trying to source all kind of information about tuning the G161W. So far found some bits and pieces (1968 R6 spider was speced around 185hp @ 8200 and 16.5kgm@7000. I have also heard that G200W, as being big brother, is pretty easy to tune output over 300-380Nm @ 3000 / 220-230@7000) but nothing really exact and concrete. I do know that there's two different versions of this DOCH, one having intakes attached to head and another, newer one where intakes can be replaced, allowing using pair of DCOEs. As the head can be "easily" made more easily breathing, having bigger carbs should greatly help getting some more power out of it. Crankshaft being with 5 bearings and having DOCH head, it obiously revs quite high. I have heard figures as high as 9000 rpm. Only limiting factor seems to be limited overbore allowance, as with more than 1.0 mm overbore you end up with engine over 1600cc which is the homologation limit for FIA Historics. This of course can be bended a bit if needed, there's no FIA scrutineering in the game. (and most of the in game competitors for this 70-73 Bellett GTR are under 2000cc in any case.)

But the question, if you build G161W for track racing, how much you are able to pull out of that lump and how high it will rev? Two key points in virtual engine design are the max torque (and where it comes) and the max power (and where it comes). Getting a dyno- or benchgraph from race car would be perfect as I can make it exact same in game. (dyno being even better as that would give me compression curve as well.)

If I guess fellow club member nick name in this forum right, Isu1600 has promised to look up dynograph for pre 1970 Rally car, which is really nice effort and helps a lot, but more information would be better.

EDIT:

Cheers, Sticky.

I'm just wondering now whether they can make me 'virtually' quick, like I was in the old days................oh, and about this belly.............

I am only virtually mediocre. Never driven in a race track, if the Legendary Imatra Motorcycle TT street track isn't counted, which I drove around only 20 years after the races last time were held. And I have only seen Goodwood track main gate, while passing to visit in Festival of Speed in 2008.
Video which I promised will be here tonight, as the upload to youtube failed last night.

EDIT2: while waiting that, here's for the down under Bellett fans a bit older video (still using development dash):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx1xR5UCWd4

[Stickman]

Can't say that I can be of any help in this department. I've go no idea

[dave]

Having been in epicfailsville on PC usage for many years (I have one; it works, I can do MS Word on it and, as I recall, Doom 3), I had no idea that GT Legends existed.

You guys did an awesome job integrating that car into the game I have to say. It sounds right and a few times where the arse-end gets hectic, it certainly reminds me of when my own (Bellett) arse end gets hectic.

In fact, that's pretty much how the rear end of my GT is when I go around a roundabout, let alone on a race track (there are photos on this site as to what happens when it did hit a race track... literally).

So that is awesome; given it's such an old game, my old PC will probably play it. I will have to source a (legitimate) copy.... now all I need is a steering wheel and pedal set (have one for PS2... I don't think it's compatible)....

Woo!

PS I don't know if you helped with this bit or if it's part of the game engine, but the fact that the view moves ever so slightly with the driver's head movements was awesome - helped bridge the uncanny valley that occurs when you're looking at a dashboard view and nothing moves..... (the reason I don't normally like the in-car view!)

Nice work!

[redback]

Hey Dave,

You can download a DEMO for free: check it out here

http://download.cnet.com/GT-Legends-dem ... 27786.html

I downloaded it the other day and had a blast round a french track in a Chev Corvette Stingray - the game really needs a steering wheel as I only had the keyboard and was crap.........I am still addicted to GT5 on PS3......does anyone have an Isuzu Bellett they can gift me on GT%??? please.


Cheers,
Neil

[Nappe1]

Game itself is very cheap (9 Euros!) and you can buy it straight from the developer:
http://www.raceroom.net/shop/item/22/gt-legends/

Original DVD and CD versions were released by 10tacle (europe) and Viva Media (USA) and after that ATARI had re-release, but all those disc versions have copy protection which causes problems with Windows Vista and Windows 7. Those can be go-arounded, but if you are really buying the game first time, I recommend the downloadable copy, which has that copy protection removed. After the download, you can burn the game on disc so that you have back up for further installation times.

Unfortunately, the original publishers went belly up few years ago, so it took a while to Simbin (the maker / developer) to get the rights back and start selling the game again.
and thanks for the comments. The sounds are actually from Alfa GTA, but there will be authentic sounds as AriNojd said that he could possibly provide possibility to sample real G161W sounds.

EDIT: This was the thing got me hooked up with the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-6YZf09SJU Nothing beats the feeling hunting down almost 5 liter Mustang with 1.3 liter Mini Cooper S as online internet race.

[Nappe1]

almost 2 years have passed since something has posted here. However after few big drawbacks, I got permission to finalize the car as it is now for the release. As I started easily with existing parts, I bit got carried away and learned few tricks on 3D modelling and ended up converting quite few additional things from original GTA-game model. after 3 weeks of used free time, I have something new to show.


as you can see it's racing GT-R in Nordsleife's legendary carousel. However, here's the reference car from finland: (the one on right)

and basically it's only missing different rims and arches painted to orange. I will do the left one too, but for that I need Minilites converted from some other model (for example, from Mini) and scaled to right size. Luckily, the guy who did original conversion of 3D model, has already started making the paint job and It is wrong color (yellow), missing few decals and in wrong plates, but those should be easy to fix.

I am about to make few more real world racers, but more about them later when there's something to show.

[Nappe1]

Getting closer to be ready.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfDBXuNRNr0

[mrflibbles]

That was a fun ride! I could feel myself leaning into the corners as the car went round! Loved the "feel" of the ff when you came of the track.
for me that is a winner, lthough i really do suck at driving games!
started watching it on the computer, and had to change to the tv as it feels alot better on the big screen!